About the cost of research...

[KilloZapit]

I personally think one of the problems with this mod as it exists now is that researching things doesn't really require that big of an investment most of the time. It only requires one of the item you want to research and a very tiny amount of time.

I kinda think it should cost experience levels instead, maybe a number of levels based on the binary logarithm (reverse powers of two, since a lot off the EMC values of objects seem to be based on powers of two) and maybe a multiplier based on complexity (basically it costs more the more crafting steps removed from the raw materials it is, which should be easy to calculate during the EMC profiling when the results of crafting recipes are given EMC values).

That, I think, would make it so becoming proficient in transmutation is an investment. Anyone could dump items into a table and convert things to EMC, but only someone who spent the experience could use EMC from items to make things. I don't know if it would be more balanced exactly, but I think it might be more interesting.

But that's just my silly idea.

[mibblemerps]

I can certainly agree that researching items is far to easy, and an extra cost should be intergrated, be it experience points or something else.

[MercuriusXeno]

-trunc- for not reading the original OP's suggestion well enough in the first place, basically I suggested the same thing except at base 10. I'm a numpty.

[KilloZapit]

Yeah, my original idea was a diamond would cost 13 levels since 2^13 = 8192.

[MercuriusXeno]

Precisely the concept, yes, with the exception that powers of 2 seems high; they would cover all the bases, but I'm not sure I can agree with the scale. 13 levels is a "lot" for a diamond. I think for a harder/more costly experience it's a good option. Personally I'd prefer the log 10, it's a bit more rounded down. Base 2 would definitely work though, imo.

[UndeadZeratul]

maybe take a page from Spice of Life's book and let the user define a custom formula?

[MercuriusXeno]

+1, even though a base 2 isn't my personal pref, i can see a lot of maps/users wanting to define their own base/curve. Java has to deal with a "shortcoming" in that it only predefines 2 bases [as of java 7, unsure if 8 adds anything new]

Math.log is the equivalent of "e" (natural log) and math.log10 is for the other customary "default", base 10.

To arrive at a base other than 10 or e, one can use the identity:

log[b]x = (log[a]x) / (log[a]b)

It would be trivial to allow a configuration to handle a user-defined base [b], where [a] is simply one static log method (either java's default [e] or log10) and [x] is the EMC value of an item in question. The result would always be the log of the EMC at a user-configured base.

Thus, base 2 would be: Math.log10(emcValue) / Math.log10(2)

[KilloZapit]

I kinda think diamonds are on the high end of things you would want to learn myself, but yeah customization is a good idea.

[MercuriusXeno]

My main concern would be mod content adding things at such a high end of the vanilla spectrum that they produce exorbitant sigmas of experience costs when looked at as a whole.

For example, thing takes 8 diamond blocks. [Dark matter, for reference]
Thing2 takes 9 of thing1. [Just an example]
Thing3 takes 9 of thing2. [Expounding]

At a log2, Thing3 costs 25 experience levels. At a log of 10, it costs around 7.
As a point of reference, thing1 (dark matter) costs 19 levels. 5.77 at log10.

While one balance may be suitable for a given player, I find 19 levels to be steep for the knowledge to craft a single item. I think 5.77 is a bit more reasonable.

It can't be overstated, it really boils down to player preference.

We could always throw in a config option to let players and server owners set the log base to more easily balance out different modded items.

I know with something like Forbidden magic with the nether start block using something like the log2 would be almost evil.

[KilloZapit]

Is 25 levels really that much? I don't even farm and I tend to get that pretty easily after not too long.

[zauberparacelsus]

Bear in mind that experience levels are not equal in the amount of experience points. When paying 5 levels, for example, you wind up paying 105 experience points when you are at level 10, but when are at level 25, you wind up paying 360 experience points.

This behavior is something that can (for example) be exploited if you have OpenBlocks installed, where if you need to pay experience levels for something, you use a drain to dump all of your experience levels, and then punch the storage tank until you have the required amount of levels you need to pay. Doing this, you wind up paying much less experience than you would if you had just paid while you had all of your levels.

More info: http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Experience#Leveling_up

So by that logic it would probably make more sense to have research cost experience points, as opposed to levels.

[KilloZapit]

I do use OpenBlocks myself... I always kinda figured experience costs were "cost enough experience to get to level x" though. The system seems kinda broken otherwise.